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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
<font color='#000000'>i am seriously thinking of reworking my head (94 st 1.8 7afe) a port, polish, new cam, lifters, etc. but...
a.i do not know what kind of shop does this, sure there are many shops that can do it for a small block chevy, or does that even matter- could it be a head is a head? does it matter what kind of shop or should i look for an import machine shop?
b. i know crane cams will custom grind camshafts but ive never heard of anyone selling upgraded lifters (or even modifying a head on this engine) valves, springs, retainers, lifters,etc.
jhull, anyone- if you hear me please help i want 2,000,000,000 horsepower and this head does not cut it and i don't want a turbo i'd like a supercharger but don't want the drag... all motor baby!! yee haww</font>
 

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<font color='#000F22'>why not start building a 5sfe on the side, this way ur car isnt down while ur doing it, and its alot more displacement. it would be very hard to get 2,000,000,000 hp out of the 7afe but a little easier off the 5sfe.. if u really wanna get a good headstart get a 3sge ot 3sgte head and bolt that on to the 5sfe block, u can get cams for that already valves ect... all the parts are made for the 3sgte head, and the head is much better then running a 5sfe. just raise the compression on the pistons and dont turbo.</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
<font color='#000000'>the whole plan was to buy a scrapper from the junkyard, sorry, recycling center- get it machined, and build as i still drive; no way the wife will let me use her accord. as far as the 5fse, do i need that ecm or can i run mine? will the head mess anything up? sorry about the questions, but thanks for the info and please keep it coming!

p.s. maybe not 2,000,000,000 probably looking for closer to 210 is this a realistic goal?</font>
 

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<font color='#000F22'>yeah i understand where ur coming from, but find a blown 5sfe at the junkyard and build that while u drive the 7afe.
as far as ecu goes what ever head you are using you need that ecu if using a 5sfe u need a 5sfe ecu.. ect....
a little more hassel but its worth it. i built a 5sfe before and parts are hard to find. i TRIED to build a 7afe and it went back to stock. there is nothing out there for them u cant even get a fuel pressure regulator its reduculous. i just see it as this if ur gonna spend some money and have 130hp out of a 7afe why not spend that money in a 5sfe and have 160hp??
if ur going all motor then u want as much displacement as possible to put you ahead of the game and the 1.8 aint gonna get u there lol.</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
<font color='#000000'>thanks, i agree with upgrading to the 5sfe, getting a little more displacement and horse going on is the main thing, just want more power</font>
 

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<font color='#000000'>Question for jhull.
You said that you could put a 3sgte head on a 5sfe block.  So you'd need an ecu for the 3sgte head or use the 5sfe ecu?  (Didn't understand)  Also is it worth swaping heads now if I plan to rebuild a 3sgte motor in the future and is it worth it if my 5sfe smokes a little on a cold start and there is oil on the #3 spark plug?  I think that means bad rings.  I need to compression test.</font>
 

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<font color='#000F22'>yeah u can put the 3sgte head on a 5sfe block. gives u a 3sgte stroker engine

you need the top end off a 3sgte including harness and ecu from a 3sgte. or get a a stand alone system and keep ur stock harness plus u dont have to get so many sensors. i get stand alones for as low as 425.
oil in the cylinder could be a couple different things bad rings, or bad valve seals. i would say its the valve seals. what i would do is find a cheap top end off a 3sgte get some lower compression 5sfe pistons 8.5:1 should be fine. new bearings and ems. rebuild that bottom end so its fresh, and slap on the top end. tune and go. if u play ur cards right u can probrolly do this project for under 1500 (which is around what a 3sgte cost used anyway) you could use a 3sgte ecu to run it but its gonna be hard to wire that up and you will need many more sensors.</font>
 

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<font color='#000000'>Where can I get a stand alone system?  Is it an ecu that you tune yourself?</font>
 

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<font color='#000F22'>I sell stand alones, yeah they are the ecus you tune urself, you can pretty much do what ever you want to your car, and make it run with what ever mods you have with a stand alone. very nice....</font>
 

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<font color='#8D38C9'>Are the stand alones better than the piggybacks?  Cuz I heard the piggybacks are okay but not the best since they "trick" the computer instead of actually adapting it or something like that...

"Now there exist inexpensive aftermarket "piggyback" computers (such as the ApexI Super AFC) that function by intercepting the signal from the mass airflow sensor, and then modifying it according to some programmable functions/positions. (on the Super AFC, they are RPM and Throttle Position) By "lying" to the ECU about how much air mass is entering the engine, the idea is to correct for the modifications done to the car, and get the ECU to "do the right thing"

For the price, these piggyback units can be pretty effective. But like the factory ECU, they don't have any concept of "boost" either. As such, the Super AFC tuner is forced to program for either the off-boost or on-boost conditions (smart ones will do on-boost!) and give up accuracy (and performance) for the other state.

Furthermore, the assumption with the piggyback units is that mass airflow signal changes will scale linearly at the ECU - in other words, a reduction of X percent of airflow signal will result in a similar reduction in fuel injected. This does not have to be the case! It is quite possible that a given signal reduction would move the stock ECU into a load cell where it is programmed to increase fuel instead (or worse, decrease it by a larger percentage than you bargined for). As such, doing a proper tuning job with a piggyback computer turns into a session of reverse-engineering the OEM programming - in effect, poking the stock ECU with a stick and seeing what it does.

As if this wasn't enough, remember that the mass air sensor is the only sensor used to determine not just the amount of fuel injected, but also the ignition timing. As such, by modifying the signal from the mass air sensor, you are not only changing fuel, but timing as well. In the specific case of the Talon ECU, reducing the amount of air reported by the sensor not only leaned out the fuel mixture, but also increased ignition advance. This increases power, but does so at the risk of detonation. It is really very important on a turbo motor to have iron control of these two functions independant of each other, and the piggybacks do not provide this level of control.

With the standalone computer, we do have this level of control, and so can get the most out of our engine. We also get access to other functions, such as anti-lag, launch control, and other goodies. The tradeoff is that we have to do all our ECU programming ourselves - and have to do so every time we make any signifigant change to the engine. For a dedicated race car like ours, this really isn't much of a drawback.

The power increase (and especially the throttle response increase) from switching from the stock ECU + piggybacks to the standalone computer was substancial, and well worth the extra effort."

This is the complete link:
Standalone EFI vs Piggyback system

So what's the dealio? ???</font>
 

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<font color='#000F22'>haha good one.....
yeah piggy back systems are a lot better but cost more money and require much more tuning. in the end a stand alone is capable of much more then the piggy back for instance with a piggy back you are stuck with the stock distributor and one coil.... with my piggy back i took out the distributor, and im running 1 coil for each cylinder. just a example. plus you dont have to deal with the stock ecu anymore check engine lights and diagnostics are a thing of the past. but.... some stock ecus are needed for other things in our cars we really dont have to worry about these things. safc and all that bullshit i would never buy. they run around 400 and just tune the ignition or the fuel map. the piggy back systems I sell are tuning by laptop and will tune fuel ignition ect... pretty much everything. they learn all tps sensors ect.... people use these stand alone systems as engine management systems. and they cost around 400...
i sell engine managents from 499-799. they both have there up and downs i would perfer a ems over a piggy back but if u dont need the extra hassel of a ems then go with the piggy back. they are much easier to use, tune, and install.</font>
 

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<font color='#000000'>hey J,  if I were to be running a turbo on a 5sfe would these upgrades to my ecu take car of the much needed fuel distribution advance needed for a turbo.  If not how do i get over the fuel & Timming hump that comes along with turboing a 5sfe.</font>
 

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<font color='#000000'>Meryem13.
I wasn't tring to be an ass up there.  I just wish that my girlfreind would take the time to learn about aftermarket products, or even her car itself or any car!  

Jhull
I'm just as confused????  :upside:
Also, what kind of software do you need for the lap top to program?  And how hard is it to figure out If you don't know what your doing!</font>
 

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<font color='#000F22'>Haha,
guys like i said they both have ups and downs, the piggyback I sell will take care of the fuel when upgrading larger injectors (of course u have to tune up the fuel map.) and it would take care of the ignition map. pretty much the way this works is takes the original ecu map and uses that when u make changes you are advancing or retarding from the stock map. so it uses the stock maps. as opposed to a ems you have to make ur own map. which is very hard, actually thats something i would tell u to have a professional do because its so cridical and that would cost around 1k-1500. but if u do the piggy back its much easier to tune and most people can do the install and tune themselfs. they run off a windows program. or if u like dos more you can run there dos program. a piggy back over all is much easier to tune a ems is a lot harder to tune but allows for many more mods. like i said with a ems you can do damn near anything. with a piggy back you still have to keep the stock distributor, ignitor, tps... ect. cause u are still using the stock ecu, i am using a ems and dont have the distributor, the ignitor is gone the tps is different, i dont have all the bs sensors there all gone. but tuning is very hard.
ask away i think i answered the questions you were asking</font>
 

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<font color='#8D38C9'>GTGraphix:  You were?  I didn't even realize it! <lol>  Thanks for the compliment though
 Yeah, a lot of girls don't care about cars or hooking them up though that can be understandable.  BUT I def think you should know about the car you drive at least!!  I figure if I don't know anything else, I shuld at least know my celi inside and out!  :thumbsup:   Thanks again.

Jhull:  Okay that makes more sense
 Let's see if I got this right, the ems is better in the sense that it allows you to do more stuff with the engine but you have to know what you're doing or else you have to pay an arm and a leg to have a professional do it for you.  The piggy back is less complicated and easier to work with esp for peopl like me who are still learning and don't know too much
 Correct?

Okay what about the ecu upgrades like the ones Jet makes?  Those would work seperatley from the piggy back right?  Would they interfere with each other or can I put them both in? ???</font>
 

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<font color='#000F22'>ur exactly on target with the description.....
jet ecus suck. they cost like 300 bucks for then to give you a new more aggressive map and thats it. you have to pay another 300 bucks for another one, they tune them all the same might add 10-15hp and thats it. not gonna work for a turbo or any major modifications.. ect. wouldnt it make more sence to just get the piggy back and tune it what ever way you want as much as you want for around 100 bucks more??
my piggy backs will work with jet ecus. there really is no need for the jet ecu if your gonna get a piggy back that i sell cause ur gonna adjust your maps with it and thats all that jet would do.</font>
 

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<font color='#8D38C9'>Awesome!
 :thumbsup:

Okay, is it just the Jet ecu's you don't like or do you think an ecu upgrade is DEF not needed with your piggybacks?  What about these modules that Next Level Performance sells?  Next Level  Are these another type of piggy back or something completely different? ???  I'm just full of questions arn't I?
</font>
 

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<font color='#000F22'>yeah u are.....
Im not gonna really get into it, but i will tell you i am very much against those little one or two wire systems, they are junk all those places that advertise gains like that dont tell you what that gain came off of, you wouldnt get that off a 2.0 4 cylinder maybe a large engine were little #### makes a bigger difference but not off a stock 4 cylinder. i really dont like these systems, pretty much all they are is a resistor in a box which adds/subtracts resistance from the sensor (I think this one works with the intake temp sensor) to fool the computer and make it think its driving in different conditions, put it this way that can only give as much hp as the stock ecu was designed to do. our computers as you know have maps, which work from throttle load, rpm,  ect.... another part it works from is the temp sensor this changes our ignition and fuel to match the conditions. if the air is hotter is has to retard the timing a couple degrees to prevent spark knock, if the air is colder then it will advance the timing to help out performance. so when ur car is out in the cold you start it up and while its still cold go and beat it. ur pretty much running the best set up that computer will give you for performance. and that chip cant make the computer retard or advance more then its made to do. it doesnt go down in temp that much the scale is probrolly advancing 3-5 degrees at 32degrees and retarding 3-4 degrees at 110degrees. so if ur max advance on a cold engine is 5 degrees thats all that chip can do for you. cause its still using the stock ecu maps and sensors just making one sensor give a different reading.. if its what i think, u can go to radioshack and get the parts to make it for under 3 dollars and it might take a hour to make it. I wouldnt buy it.
there really isnt anything wrong with jet ecus. im just saying you pay 300 bucks for a upgraded map, and if you change anything major then u gotta pay another 300 bucks to have it remaped, why not just pay 400 and have something u can change every min if u wanted to?? they are quick on service and plug and play, but if u really want to do mods, they arnt gonna be in the best interest to do.
You understanding all of this??</font>
 
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